Episode Transcript
Sasha: Welcome to the Heart of Advice podcast. I'm Sasha Grabenstetter.
Connor: And I'm Connor Sung.
Sasha: We're your eMoney experts, here today with Abbey Henderson, CEO, wealth advisor, and coach at Abaris Financial Group. She's a CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER™, and a Registered Life Planner, a designation of those specializing in the human side of money. We're going to get into that topic in just a moment, but we first want to hear about your backstory, Abbey. So can you give us a little bit about your journey in the field of financial planning that led to starting your own firm?
Abbey: Sure. I'd be happy to, and thank you for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity to chat with you guys. OK. So I started out thinking I wanted to be a CPA, and I know everyone's like, oh, goodness. So I did end up doing a few audits and a tax season, and I discovered that the only thing that I really enjoyed was doing the personal tax returns. I was so lucky to be at a CPA firm that had a financial planning group. So that experience made me walk down the hall and ask if I could change groups, moving from audit to personal financial planning. And they were gracious enough to say yes. I was so lucky. And I did that for probably four or five years.
Then in 2001, I started my own RIA. I've always had this sort of idea that well, I'll just do it on my own. So off I went as a probably pretty naive 27-year-old. And luckily, it worked out. I've been doing this ever since. And I continued on the traditional path of being a financial advisor. And in 2015, I started working with my own coach. And we started really focusing on exploring what parts of the job I really loved. I had been doing it at that point for 15 years and was looking to figure out how I could do more of the pieces that I really liked. And so after that coaching session, I went off and did the Registered Life Planner designation with the Kinder Institute. And so that introduced me to figuring out how to develop closer relationships, deeper relationships with clients, which it turns out I really love. And I also started to dip my toe into the idea that there could be more than just the goals of retirement and educating kids. For anyone not necessarily familiar with the Kinder process, a big part of it is three questions. And one of the questions you ask clients is: If you were to die tomorrow, what would you regret not having, doing, or being?
A lot of times you get answers like, “I would regret not having spent more time with my family.” And the first client I tried this with, right out of the gate, her answer was, “I would regret that I died with no one really knowing who I was and not being a good enough mother, sister, wife, grandmother.”
I had this epiphany that if clients were going to share these things with me, I really needed to be able to serve them and I had a responsibility to serve them as best I could. And so off I went to get more tools in the toolbox because I really didn't feel like I was prepared for that vulnerable of an answer. And that was something she had never shared with anyone ever before.
Sasha: Wow.
Abbey: Yeah. So off I went to become a life coach, I did that in 2018. And I did it with what is now called the Co-Active Training Institute in California. It was one of the most challenging things that I have ever done. And ever since I finished that, I've been looking for new ways to integrate coaching, deeper relationships, better service to clients in my financial planning practice.
Connor: I just wanted to pay Abbey a compliment. That's a lot of time and dedication toward looking to change the way that people think about money. And ultimately just trying to help them fulfill their lives. You know, it's both financial as well as more than just how the finances impact their overall life goals. And then obviously, you know, being certified and designated to help people connect the dots between those two levels of success.
Abbey: I was going to say, one thing that I discovered that was really interesting through this process is that sometimes it's strange, but being someone's financial advisor, you're more approachable. There's no stigma attached to talking to you. And, you know, they're talking to you about their finances, which already feels a little vulnerable. And so I was really shocked and pleased that clients were opening up to me where maybe they wouldn't to other people.
Connor: What do you think the breakdown was between—so obviously, you were more experienced as you continued. You got the CFP®. You then became a Registered Life Planner, then a coach. But along the way, you were helping clients throughout that entire time. Where did they fall in value added in practical application, the actual education and learning? Also, you'd mentioned that the coaching program was one of the most difficult things. I'm just going to assume, but I'll ask the question, was it because of the introspection that comes along with going through that course? If you could just share a little bit more of the education of all three of those different pieces and how you implemented those learnings?
The Value of Obtaining Designations
Abbey: Absolutely. The three certifications were the CFP®, the RLP®, and the coaching designation. So, the CFP® equips you with a strong technical background for the nuts and bolts of financial planning. It's the foundation for being a wealth advisor. The RLP® provides great tools to help clients with visioning and introspection. It gives them structure to think about their future.
The coaching training was particularly valuable because it helped me become more intentional with the things I was already doing intuitively. For example, I naturally act as a cheerleader for my clients. But the training helped me recognize this as a coaching skill and how to use it deliberately in client conversations. It also broadened my toolkit.
The most challenging aspect was the shift in thinking. During my coaching program, I had to complete 100 hours of pure coaching, without any financial planning involved. These sessions were reviewed by a master coach who served as my supervisor.
I submitted my first tape, and she, the supervisor, was so nice. She said, “I understand why your clients love you. You have so much empathy and warmth and you're such a good listener and you did zero coaching.”
Connor: Ouch, that's brutal!
Abbey: It was a bit brutal. They say they tear you down to build you back up, and she was right. As advisors, we can sometimes come across as the experts, doing most of the talking and not necessarily challenging our clients. But as a coach, you're doing almost the opposite. You're helping the client discover the answers in them—you are challenging them. And so it was really interesting to try to learn how to take the different hats on and off and bring different things to the conversation in different places.
Connor: That's great. It sounds like figuring out the technical terms for some of the stuff that you were doing before and then learning additional ways to round out things you were doing successfully already, which brings me to my next question. Which is, essentially, you have a unique approach toward helping clients fulfill their life goals. And it is, I'd say, probably more holistic in nature than even holistic financial planning would encompass. But can you tell us a little bit more about your model of authentic wealth?
Abbey: It's been a journey. I've spent now six, seven years trying to figure out how to incorporate all of these wonderful things that I've learned into something more cohesive. So, for a long time, you know, we've done financial planning, investments in a pretty traditional way. You ask clients to describe what their goals are, they may tell you "I want to educate my kids and then retire at 65," then we create some cash flow models that are designed to help them achieve those milestones. And I've evolved to the point where I want to think, as you said, a little bit bigger, even more holistically. And we've created what we call the model of authentic wealth. And the basis of that model is that we believe that you can reach authentic wealth when you align your resources, which we call the five levers, which are finances, obviously, that's my background, but we also include health, relationships, time, and mindset. And so we believe that when you really dial those five things in and you align them with your values, your vision for the future, and the impact that you want to make on yourself, your family, and your community, that's where we can help clients find fulfillment.
Sasha: To me, those are all those things that we think about, like Connor said earlier, with holistic planning. But you're really helping your clients all the way around, which I really do love. I really am so impressed with the level of community that you build, which we'll talk about later, but also the connection you have to your clients. I think that's really beautiful.
Abbey: So all of those things are so interrelated, right? Having more money may or may not be able to buy you more time, and more time spent on your health might improve that. So we really believe it's all interrelated. So why don't we try to incorporate it all in one model and help clients on all of those.
Sasha: Definitely agree. When I think about it, honestly, when I really do think about it, it's just so impactful. So I imagine you have very loyal clients and we're going to talk about that in just a little bit.
Abbey: It's important to remember, especially for advisors listening, that some clients might not be interested in this approach. I imagine people, maybe advisors listening to this, are thinking, “Oh, I don't know if my clients would like that.”
You have to meet people where they are. I definitely have clients who prefer a traditional engagement, and that's perfectly fine. It's not the sole direction for my firm, but we use the model as a foundation for everything we do. This framework helps us tailor our approach for each client. Not everyone will fit perfectly into every aspect of the model. Some clients might prioritize name recognition over deeper connections. For others, family might come first, with finances seen as a tool for supporting their family. The model's strength lies in its flexibility. It allows us to adapt while still offering a clear process and communicating our core values. We can adjust based on what resonates with each client. If there's pieces of this that don't resonate, then we don't we won't necessarily have to lean in. But you have something to clearly communicate as process, as a thing to say, “This is what we believe in, this is where we're going, this is how we plan on getting you there.”
And just like advisors evolve, so do clients. What works in year one might not be the same 10 years down the road. Maybe then they'll be ready for a more holistic approach. Consistency is key here. The more you talk about something with a client, the more it starts to resonate and sink in for them. And it creates a cohesive experience, a bigger ecosystem that makes sense.
Sasha: To pivot slightly, our recent Evolution of Advice study found that the most important step for personalizing the CFP financial planning process is the first step: understanding our clients' personal and financial circumstances. We've touched on this a bit, especially with discussing processes, but can you tell me how you approach adding a personal touch to your initial discovery meeting with clients? I'm particularly interested in hearing about how you personalize the onboarding and discovery meeting.
How to Personalize the Discovery Process by Leading With the Client's Story
Abbey: I always lead with getting to know my client’s story. First and foremost, before I even begin mentioning finances, or my firm, or background, or anything really related to the engagement and what we can do for them. I always want to find out what's important to them. I always want to find out what has made them reach out, because a lot of times you get a lot of knowledge from that question—something may have happened in their life that has brought them to making this call. And I think this is where getting really good about asking powerful questions is important, and also being a good listener.
But as they're telling you their story and what's important to them, this is your opportunity to ask good questions. So, if someone comes to you because their child just got into Harvard and they want to figure out how to finance it, that's a perfect opportunity to dig deeper. Ask them, "How did it feel when you got that letter?" "What's important to you about education for your kids?" These questions can open up entirely new areas of information.
So step one is to get curious, and lead with the client. Don't talk about yourself or what you can do for them. Then, if things progress towards becoming a client, we move to step two: to deepen the discussion about what is important and start clarifying their values.
There are many ways to do this. One method I've used is a values card sort. There are pre-made flashcard sets you can buy with different values listed.
You maybe start with 100 cards and ask the client to keep sorting them into piles until they come up with their five or 10 most important values. And that is so useful because you've made them think about it and you've helped them clarify it. Most people, if you ask them directly, might only come up with two or three values. They haven't necessarily tried to think about it more sensibly or think about, “Well, if I only have to pick five, what really are the most important five?”
And so another way that I like to do it is through those Kinder exercises that I mentioned, the three questions, and just listening to a client describe, you know, what they would regret, or one of the other questions is the lottery question. “If money was no issue, what would you be doing right now?” If a client spends a little bit of time doing it, you can typically, from the answers to those questions, get pretty close to their top 10 values just by listening to their answers.
Connor: Side note, I did not get into Harvard. But I did apply. But just thinking about how powerful that message is of that feeling. I can even feel my level of happiness had I been accepted into Harvard—unbeknownst to me, maybe someone’s essay got mixed up with mine or something like that—but the feeling helps you align so well with whatever they’re looking to do. And I also love the values card exercises. I did one myself, which was a little interesting proctoring my own, as far as making myself cut down cards in half.
Abbey: It is hard.
Connor: It is. It's very hard. But it makes most of my financial decisions or most of my decisions in life, not even financial ones specifically, it makes them easier. Because even if I go back through the values card exercise and try and get out of whatever value card I ended up with to make a decision, I still end up with around the same end values or goals in my overall life, which makes your job easier then too if you have somebody that's in a conundrum, you point them in the right direction based off of that.
Abbey: Absolutely. It really affects everything we do. And yet oftentimes advisors spend years and multiple traditional client meetings gathering all the nuggets along the way of what those values really are when you can just nail them down right at the beginning and then you're off and running with the planning.
Creating a Safe Space for Clients to Be Vulnerable
Sasha: I have a follow-up question from some of the things that you said. I just want to know, how do you get your clients really comfortable with you when you're having these very vulnerable conversations? I mean, asking somebody “If you die tomorrow, what would you regret?” Or asking them, “If you won the lottery, what would you do?” Those are very vulnerable, and I just want to know how you get them comfortable enough to respond.
Abbey: I think there's a couple answers to that question. I think one is to create an environment where there's no wrong answers and there's no judgment. I think part of what scares clients is that they think there's a right answer or there's what they should say. “Should” is a bad word, I think. Because it usually implies obligation, and it usually implies something that is not necessarily in alignment with the person and their values. It's more cultural or old money stories or something they learned as children.
I think first and foremost, you want to create a no judgment zone. And I think you can come out and say that at the beginning of doing these exercises. Like, “I'm not here to judge you. I am here to help you realize your full potential, however, you define that. What I think, first of all, doesn't matter. But also, I'm thrilled with whatever your answer is as long as it's authentic.’” So I think that's a big part of it. We actually talked about this at an eMoney Summit in terms of developing trust with clients. And I think that being a good listener is important. I think right from the get-go, if you're asking good questions and you seem very engaged, you're already starting to create a level of trust with that person. And then following through on everything that you say you're going to do: I said we were going to meet at this time and I show up at this time. All of those little things come together to create an environment where a client starts to feel comfortable. I guess the last thing that I would say is, you're right. These things can bring up some emotions. And I think normalizing emotions for clients is really important too. So if they do start to get teared up about an answer, just tell them, “Take all the time you need. This is so normal. So many clients feel this way.” And that gives them permission to feel how they're feeling.
Sasha: I love that.
Connor: Beyond the direct face-to-face engagements, it sounds like you have great connections with your clients. I know that you've pursued other opportunities to help clients, especially via your podcast, Wealth Beyond Riches. Talking a lot about client values and creating a vision for their future and some of the things that we've talked about today with values alignment. Could you just talk a little bit about the podcast and share some examples of exercises and techniques that you use to help clients explore and define their vision?
Abbey: So the podcast is based on our model, and it's a combination of me with a co-host, and then I also bring on guests. We are generally looking to bring resources and knowledge around the five levers. So that's the context of the podcast, and it's fairly new. So it's been a bit of learning curve and an adventure. But just as a quick plug for podcasts, in general, for people listening, I had no idea how useful it was going to be to connect with clients and prospects. I was doing it because it sounded sort of fun and it fit in with the model, and everyone says you should do it from a marketing perspective, but the feedback I've gotten specifically from clients has been amazing. It just gives you as an advisor more humanity than a blog or a 90 second video clip or something that's scripted. So just a quick plug for doing podcast. I was shocked at how well it was received.
And then in terms of exercises that we've talked about on the podcast so far. You know, we've talked about the values card sort. We've talked about the questions. One thing that I like to do, and we've talked about on the podcast, is doing an assessment. So looking at the five levers: your time, mindset, relationships, finances, and health, and seeing if you think what you're doing in those categories is currently aligned with your values. For example, if you say one of your values is family, looking in that relationship category, do you think how you are developing and maintaining your relationships is in alignment with you saying that family is a high priority value? So that kind of a cool exercise that I think is useful for clients and prospects to do as well. And you can do it with all the five levers, not just your financial plan.
Sasha: I definitely agree with you on that. Like I said, we love the values cards. I personally do. You're making sure that we're all in alignment. I think that that's great. So we talked about this prior to recording today, about how a values conversation might play out with a client. And we decided today, Connor and I did a heads or tails and Connor lost. Sorry, Connor. But I'm going to play the role of the client if you don't mind. We wanted to have the audience hear how it sounds.
Abbey: Sure.
Client Scenario: Clarifying Values on a Home Renovation Project
Sasha: We've been thinking about doing a renovation to expand our dining room, but it's a lot of money and we're not really sure about it.
Abbey: Sounds like an exciting project. Tell me more about that.
Sasha: So we want to expand the dining room, we feel like we can kind of afford it, but, you know this. We've always prided ourselves on being responsible with our money. We feel like it's not really a necessity.
Abbey: Well, so first, let's just take a moment to acknowledge the fact that you guys have been such good stewards of your wealth over all these years that we've known each other. I mean, that has served you well. That's why you're in the position that you can afford this renovation. So you should be so proud of yourselves. So I'm curious, if you do expand your dining room, what will you be able to do that you can't do now?
Sasha: Well, now that our children have kids of their own, I have a vision of holidays with everyone around the table together, which we really can't do right now. I really want to be part of making new traditions with our grandkids.
Abbey: So just imagine, it's Thanksgiving dinner. The table is set, the turkey’s on the table or whatever you guys are having, the candles are lit. How is that going to feel for you?
Sasha: Just imagining that feels amazing. I also am starving for turkey right now.
Abbey: So tell me what would be possible for your family if this dining room came to fruition.
Sasha: Well, I think we would feel closer to each other. It definitely would give us an opportunity to connect and for us to be part of our grandkids’ lives. I definitely don't get to see them enough, and I really do miss them. It would create memories that we will always have, even after we're gone. So I remember holidays at my grandparents' house. It was it was honestly so special.
Abbey: Oh, yeah. I can imagine. So, what if we were to reframe this renovation as an opportunity for you guys to honor your strong value around family relationships. How does that feel?
Sasha: It feels less guilty. I feel less guilty about spending that money, that's for sure.
Abbey: Awesome. So mull that over. Start to feel if that's shifting things for you a little bit. In the meantime, let's just take a quick moment to figure out how you would fund this if you did decide to move forward. And I know in the past, you've mentioned that you feel that being debt-free is really important to you. Am I remembering that correctly? Do I have that right?
Sasha: Yeah. I remember my parents always taught me that you can never spend more than you have.
Abbey: Yeah. I totally understand. So many of my clients learned a similar lesson and feel exactly the same way. So from a strictly math standpoint, it will cost you less ultimately to use your home equity line at this point, rather than take the money from your IRA. I'm sure you remember that IRA withdrawals are taxed in the same way a paycheck is. But I also don't want to ignore the psychological benefit to you of having less debt. What feels right to you when you think about how you might pay for this?
Sasha: Can I afford it either way?
Abbey: You can afford it either way. So, why don't we do this? I modeled them both in Decision Center. So why don't we throw those up on the big screen and we can take a look at both of them. But before I show you anything, I want you to remember that there is no right or wrong, that the most important thing is for you to make a decision that feels right for you.
Sasha: And scene. That was great. Connor, do you have any commentary from our role play?
Connor: I mean, just again, the feelings. I seriously did get chills when I was thinking about my own family’s Thanksgivings, and I think correlating it back to values, it really does help people get more comfortable and make better decisions. So I think that goes leaps and bounds ahead of being a much more tactical conversation where you just go right to the solutioning or right to the endpoint where you're saying, “Yeah, you can do it. And here's the best mathematical approach to doing so,” without any of the additional sentiment towards how the client would actually feel towards one or any possible solutions.
Abbey: The key thing too is to always connect the client back to their “why.” So it’s not about the renovation. It’s about the family. This may come up again down the road. It may come up in conversation. It may come up relevant to another decision. And so, for you to have that background as an advisor that you can then leverage forward into the relationship is super powerful.
Sasha: I think it's such a great piece showing not only emotional intelligence, but also empathy. Because you did mention, “I know that you have a problem with debt. Let's kind of talk through that for just a moment.” And that to me probably makes all the difference for clients. It's just remembering, “Oh, hey, I remember this about you” and those little key moments.
I have a question. I know from listening to your podcast that you have created this wonderful community with your clients, and so I wondered if you can just briefly talk about it, especially the meditation piece. I was really interested in hearing about that. And the book club as well.
Abbey: So it's something I've really embraced, basically, since COVID. I used to take the approach that maybe my clients didn't want to know each other, and I was a little bit wary of smaller, more intimate events. And COVID changed everything, I think, for everyone, and that's where the meditation group was born.
During the COVID pandemic, we hosted a series of webinars as everyone was adapting to Zoom. Among these, we organized a meditation webinar, a health-focused session, and a resilience webinar featuring a Wharton professor. The meditation group that emerged from these webinars received positive feedback and continues to thrive. If you had asked me in March 2020 whether I’d still be leading this meditation group in 2024, I would have said no. Yet here we are.
This experience highlighted something important: our clients genuinely appreciate getting to know each other. Building on this, we’ve introduced other initiatives. Our “Five Lever Book Club” meets monthly, where we explore books related to the five levers. The model has brought structure to our programming, replacing the days when I randomly picked books for the club.
Additionally, we organize smaller client events. Recently, we held a virtual wine tasting to celebrate Abaris’ B Corp status. The wines featured were produced by underrepresented communities and organizations giving back through scholarships. It was a delightful experience.
Also, our “AFG Charitable” program brings together a select group of clients. Each year, they receive a pool of funds to allocate to charities of their choice. The process involves voting, and it has not only supported worthy causes but also fostered friendships among our clients.
If you had asked me in 2020 whether this is how everything was going to unfold, I would have said no. But it's such a lovely thing and it's so much in alignment with what I want Abaris to be about. And it's a value add to the clients. So it's worked out beautifully.
Sasha: I'm really jealous of this wine club, the wine tasting you guys got to do. I just think that’s so cool. Those are such great experiences. And then you get to know your clients better and you can file those nuggets about them away. Again, using that emotional intelligence to really deepen those relationships.
Abbey: It's been so fun.
Connor: Rewarding. That’s what it seems like. It seems like you truly enjoy participating in it. And I'm sure that your clients definitely do. I have been engaged in a few professional events like that where there was a community generated, and I definitely went in with some aspect of hesitation to actually participate or even to attend. But I've met some amazing people and some of my closest friends now out of them. And the mutual problem or whatever reason why they initially came to you looking for guidance or help, I think it's automatically a place to start having discussions versus just you know, meeting somebody randomly on the street or in some other format.
Abbey: Definitely.
Connor: Well, just to close this out here, I have one final question for you. Number one, thank you for joining us on the Heart of Advice podcast. Of course, I'm curious, as you've been engaged, you've talked about your participation in eMoney Summits in the past, and I know heart of advice isn't something new to you. But could you define the heart of advice for us?
Abbey: So, this is just my definition. I think that the heart of advice is discovering how you can be of greatest service to your clients, and then delivering on that.
Sasha: I love that. That's sweet and to the point. And I think especially when we look at the Heart of Advice research that we did many years ago, I think that hits the nail on the head. Abbey, I really wanted to just thank you first of all for being our very first guest. And for joining us on the Heart of Advice podcast, even with Connor and I trying to figure out our dynamic too. But also for sharing your perspective on personalizing financial planning, personalization in financial planning. We couldn't have done this first episode without you.
Abbey: Oh, well, as always, I love talking to you guys, and what eMoney is doing. It's obviously really aligned with how I think about the world of financial planning. So thank you for putting these resources out there.
Disclaimer: Please be advised that this podcast contains purely educational information, and nothing discussed may be construed as legal, tax or financial advice. Please consult a financial advisor for any financial investment or money management questions. All views or opinions represented in this podcast are solely the opinion of the speaker, and do not represent those of eMoney Advisor, LLC, or any of its affiliates.
